How much of a man (or woman) are you?
How important is masculinity to you?
Maybe this varies according to your own masculinity - I'm not real sure, hence the question. I remember when I first came out I was solely against what I deemed to be "queeny" guys - until a guy I was keen on politely informed me that some of his best friends were a little girly. hmm.. that was something to consider - why was I so closed minded? It turned out at the time it was a reaction to the hostility I was facing from others (ie. family!).
Over time I well and truly got over that - we all have our different attributes, some of us are more / less feminine than others. I'm by no means a shining example of manliness myself!
On the relationship side of things - I imagine I could only be with someone at a similar level of masculinity to my own. But to be honest I've never really tested that theory as my bf fits that criteria anyway. Perhaps if it were a level up or down I'd simply adjust accordingly? In friends it's different - I really don't think I'd care. In fact it actually becomes a positive point of difference.
How masculine do you see yourself? How important is it in the people you surround yourself with?
For Antyre and any other girls reading .. please exchange masculine for feminine and vice versa 
I was just too damn lazy to make this post non gender specific.
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RE:This NYTimes article about
Wow! Such an interesting article.....
This NYTimes article about
This NYTimes article about Albanese fremales who assume the masculine gender is a very interesting demonstration of the complexity of gender, identity, sex, and sexual orientation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/world/europe/25virgins.html
Sexism is also creating
Sexism is also creating stereotypes of masculinity for men or femininity for women, superiority or inferiority notwithstanding.
I quite agree, but masculinity and "being a man" are not exactly the same thing. Masculinity IS about stereotypes, or at least, archetypes, if you want....
sexism
Sexism is also creating stereotypes of masculinity for men or femininity for women, superiority or inferiority notwithstanding.
I like It All
Sorry, I just edited this for spelling. I didn't realize it would bring it to the top of the list.
I guess that there are some of us gay men who are not attracted to ruggedly handsome men, but I'm certainly not one of them.
I grew up in Hampton Roads, Virginia, and now live here again. There is so much military. Masculinity is highly prized in the military. I do love a man in uniform.
However, my one LTR was with a man who is somewhat nelly. I feel really comfortable around guys who are not hyper-masculine. I have no problem with a man's being a little limp-wristed, but I'm still
a little creeped out bynot attracted to men who seem to make an effort to be more effeminate than women.Keep in mind that, for me, in a relationship, masculinity has nothing to do with being a top or a bottom, who has the better job, who or is more dominant.
Oh yeah, my first time was with a man that afterwards my friends descibed to me a "quite a lady." I could only see that in retrospect. All I knew was that I was attracted to him, and I also realize that I felt safe with him.
I consider my mannerisms to be "in the middle," but those to whom I've recently come out tell me that they had no idea about me. That makes me chuckle.
I grew up in a neighborhood of all girls and naturally adopted feminine mannerisms. I learned that to fit in, I had to butch it up. I'm now comfortable with the what I have become -- a product of my environment, but my own man.
Do I like obviously-gay guys because it makes me feel more masculine? I don't know, but I'm not afraid of the question. Funny, the flip side is that I don't see my chances as good with a man who is totally butch.
Must. stop. typing.
One might easily say that
One might easily say that judging masculinity based on whether the person is butch looking or acting is sexist too, yes?
I can't see why... sexism is attributing superiority to one sex. Judging masculinity on butcheness may not agree with all notions of masculinity, but is not sexist per se.
And what makes a woman....
Interestingly, what makes a man, integrity, humility, and standing up for what one believes in, are the same qualities that make a woman. Of character.
We're talking attraction, and so far it seems that outer appearance and behavior falls by the wayside when it comes down to it. Maybe most look past the outside package as intrinsically we know that who the person is, is more important than what the person is.
Charleton Heston might embody one form of masculinity; Albert Einstein might be seen as masculine, but not in the same way. One might easily say that judging masculinity based on whether the person is butch looking or acting is sexist too, yes?
I think he's just saying
I think he's just saying that how you look and what you own isn't what makes you a man; it's all about one's character.
But good character is NOTHING about manliness, maleness, virility, or anything remotely related. Neither vice-versa (specially not vice-versa!).
Intersecting those two concepts (man-stuff and good-person-stuff) is a traditional, but irrational and sexist conceptualisation of the World.
It's the qualities
I think he's just saying that how you look and what you own isn't what makes you a man; it's all about one's character.
A man is someone who has
A man is someone who has integrity, humility, and stands up for what he believes in.
I guess that this was not what you meant but it sounds a tad sexist, no?
I try not to think about it..but sometimes I do
I was born in '65, and in high school there weren't too many out people at all. A girl friend of mine helped me find my way through my sexuality, and at the time, I called myself bi, because that's where I was then. I was incredibly self-conscious (like a lot of us were then), but most people said I walked in kind of a macho way, which I don't think I did intentionally.
Through the years, I met a few femme guys, but it was always kind of a turn-off for me, and I wondered whether they were being intentionally over-dramatic or were just that way. To this day, I know some are over-dramatic, but I'm finally more comfortable with it.
It comes down to this, no matter what your background. If people like you for who you are, they will accept your different-ness. I've made friends with people of all backgrounds, muslims, Southern Baptists, employers, coworkers, who've accepted that I'm gay because they first accepted me as a decent person.
So the question of masculinity has now become a moot point for me. What makes a man isn't hirsuitness, big muscles, or a fancy car. A man is someone who has integrity, humility, and stands up for what he believes in.
I don't care for the most
I don't care for the most part.
Although an over-the-top flamboyant personality will bug me after a while. It's fun for an hour or so, but then I'd rather have calm surroundings...
*shrug.
RE:But it's not exactly
I know, but I don't know how is in your countries guys, but here there's still the stereotype of the queenie ladies as gays, and I don't really like that!!!
My life's is just like many buga's( Buga is the term here in Mexico used to refer to str8 guys) , just with the difference that when I get home, I want to see my boyfriend. I'm not much of going to gay places, since I thing that's just self labeling as "yes, we're different...we have our special places"...
Ah, nevermind... I'm kind of depressed 'cause I found a special (geeky and WOW! so damn smart ) boy, but we live 6 hours on plane away from each other...
haha My 3 minutes of dramma!
But it's not exactly
But it's not exactly frog-kissing to find princes... its more like finding that frogs can be surprisingly interesting if you put you put your prejudices aside.
Not slutty, just sampling
They say one must kiss a lot of frogs before finding Prince Charming. Or, if you like, going to a winery and spending hours tasting different varieties until one finds that perfect Merlot or Chablis! hehe
Well... my experience with
Well... my experience with guys (black, white, muscled, fat, thin, hairy, waxed, tall, short, young, old, etc., etc.) is that though a have a basic desired stereotype (which, embarassingly and Freudianly enough, is my father), the rewards of meeting an irregular pearl are high enough so I am willing to do a case-by-case analysis, instead to have draconian general rules.
(Or perhaps I am just an easy slut.)
Ditto
Hey Javaman,
Muscle-y guys are nice eye candy, but in my experience (Doug) there was a compulsive/obsessive focus on being fit, which, in my dating years, drove me crazy. Bill's in good shape, and so am I, relatively speaking. We stay that way by just being plain old busy.
-Doug
I said NOR!
haha my post said NOR hahaha and actually I don't like muscle guys.....I feel that I'm hugging a tree or something death...I prefer regular, real guys!!
javaman wrote: I don't
javaman wrote:
I don't like to go to dance or to gay zones
Same here .. I just don't have a rhythmic bone in my body. (And the extended family knows I'm also tone deaf - I love SingStar, but only when someone else is singing)
He also tempted us with:
I like to be very fit and have a lot of muscles...
Ok .. so you tease us with a comment like "lots of muscles", and yet your profile has no photo?
If you're scared of showing your face online, that's ok - biceps or pecs will do
(And in case you're wondering - the photo in my profile is not me! Just some friends I wish I had!)
I'm an engineer,a friend, etc..gay is just a characteristic
In my case I think I'm the worst gay ever!!! I don't like to go to dance or to gay zones, nor I like to be very fit and have a lot of muscles...
I'm just as any other of my male friends, the only difference is that when we go out, I bring a male friend (I don't have a bf right now) and they bring their girlfriends.
=)
femme
I'm actually very femme and queeny, but it tends to come naturally. In fact a lot of my friends tend to say that I am more feminine than the girls they know, but that tends to be who I am and no matter how much I try to change it I can't.
As to who I am attracted to I don't really care as long as they are truthful. I dislike the overly feminine gays who are only faking femininity because it's the 'gay' thing to do, but I also dislike the masculine men who are only manly because it's the stereotypical 'male' thing to do. Basically as long as someone is true to who they are and don't change themselves for society, then the femme factor takes no part in my decision.
I'm not fem myself - and
I'm not fem myself - and judging by the
people that ask me when will I get a girlfriend no one suspects a
thing... Any how, personally I'm attracted to 'straight acting' men
(i.e. not men without manners but rather men without the limp wrist,
without the high voice and that aren't flamboyant queens). Strangely
enough I do like men with somewhat of feminine bodies - i.e. not very
masculine but rather smooth.
When I was in my late
When I was in my late teens-early twenties I was very attracted to masculinity. I always had a crush on some straight freind or co-worker. My boyfriends weren't particularly masculine, but I was always lusting after the butch gays or straight guys. By the age of 30 I realized that a lot of straight guys don't want a boyfriend (duh!). Like SaintCahier, I was getting tired of the gay guys who are overly serious about their butchness and the Cult of Manliness. While I admit that I like muscle and body hair, I'm a lot less concerned about body types and masculine/feminine mannerisms than I used to be. I guess I prefer guys who are aren't self-conscious about the queeny/butch issue, who are comfortable with who they are.
I've never been particularly feminine or masculine, although I was very self-conscious in those teen/early 20s years. I chop fire wood and change electric light switches, but I enjoy fashion design competions like Project Runway/Catwalk, love costumes and have done bad drag. I aslo have to admit that now that i'm (cough, 50, hrmmph) getting older, certain things seem a lot less important than they used to be.
I like more when people
I like more when people around me are able to "play" gender roles and identities with fluidity, sense of humour and a "who cares" attitude and I normally feel uncomfortable when the matter is treated as something of utter importance.
I actually do like queeny cattiness, but only when it is done in a carefree, natural and moderate way. I find it extremely tiresome those gay circles where every phrase which comes out of one's mouth must be a masterpiece of corrosive wit. Conversely, I find a good splash of testosterone très bandant, but those übermale-parodies with a maculine selfconciousness worse thant the worst latino straight macho pig... no appeal, sorry.
* * *
Growing up listening from my father 10 times a day "be a man", "don't talk like a woman", "stop being such a queen", etc... has not made wonders for my masculine self confidence. I grew up convinced that I would be the next RuPaul... but in reality I am not *that* of a queen (I am queeny enough for people used to gays recognise me after 10 minutes, but people who only know gays on TV find that I am "somewhat excentric" but cannot exactly grasp why.)
* * *
Gender is about identity, I guess, and I never, even for a split second doubted that I am utterly, completely, pleasurably, gloriously, and marvelously a male (and that despite of all the cruel comments heard in my childhood).
But the fact is that I simply don't care about it enough to attach it the importance my father (the straight male with whom I have most intimacy) seems to attach. If I talk to the phone to someone I am not likely to talk again (a salesman or the 411 guy, for exemple) and he calls me "madame", I don't bother to correct him.
* * *
I consider sometimes creating a drag persona with some inconspicuous and non-gender specific marker, like a hat. Ideally I wouldn't even change voice and mannerisms, just the attitude. Then you would have this hairy, moustached, somewhat queeny, tenor voiced person, who presents herself as a woman. I wonder how people would react.
* * *
I have this *one* male friend who calls me by a female name, and vice-versa. I even sometimes mention him as "she" to others, if I am inattentive.
* * *
Being a bear myself, I primarely date bears. Given the amount of "no queens please" you read in the profiles of those guys, I wondered at first if was doomed to a very lonely life. But either I am not queeny enough in their criterion, or they are willing to make some accomodation...
[my gosh... what an essay!]
Every time people meet me
Every time people meet me off the net in person for the first time, I'm told that they're surprised at how deep my voice is and how masculine acting I am. I'm not sure if I come across as a screaming queen online or if I'm just on the more traditionally male acting side of gay men.
Honestly, I was like you: even a hint of queeniness was possibly the biggest deterrent for me in other guys when I first started coming out and getting involved in the gay community. Now, I don't really care much. I dislike cattiness completely, which often goes hand in hand with queeniness, but as for femmy guys, it doesn't bother me one bit. I would prefer to date a guy who was more in the middle (in touch with his feminine side and not butch, which, IMO, is more of a put off than queeniness), but a lot of the guys that I've dated have leant slightly towards the feminine; it's just the way it worked out.